do ghosts-spirits really exist?

[ellion]

do ghosts or spirits really exist.

of course, we cannot actually say they do or do not we can only interpret out experience. the nature of ghosts and spirits and the experience of the phenomena is an entirely subjective one and science is inherently sceptic of the very word ghost.

but these experiences are very common and many people do beleive spirits and ghosts are living souls of passed humans.

does anybody have such experiences they can share or any strong opinions about the subject?

although this is not really parapsychology i have placed this question in this forum, perhaps due to my belief about the mind and esp.

[Shell]

Bred, born, and raised in Guam, I was shaped with the belief of ancient spirits.  There were so many cultural rules and traditions to follow to please the "people of the land."  We didn't do any voo doo or anything, but we were taught many things that may be seen as abnormal to strangers.

As kids, we were taught to fear and respect the spirits by asking permission before entering jungle areas.  We even heard or saw strange ghostly things.

However, after coming to the mainland and adjusting to life on my own and away from family and tradition, I realized how unreal all those beliefs and cultures were!  Superstitions are foolish to me.  Ghosts?  I think our imaginations become over-creative when influenced by spirit-focused cultures.  I don't believe in any of those things now.

I am a Christian now and have God on my side to confirm the nonexistance of ghosts or spirits who are neither in heaven nor hell.  But even long before I became a Christian, I began to see how strong my beliefs were when they were influenced by my family and tradition versus being on my own to witness for myself that they are indeed creations of the mind.

This is a great, debatable topic.  I know many will disagree with me.  However, these are my opinions on the subject and I found it to be an enjoyable topic to discuss!

[SWM]

i agree this is a great debatable topic.

what i find interesting about your reply Cecile is you changed one set of believes for another. i am sure that your faith in God and Christ is held with the same conviction that your belief in spirits and ghosts was. but, you now have a different culture that will be constantly reinforcing your current believes.

the mind and its contents have a high level of maliability. i mean it is easy to change thought process and beliefs given the right conditions.

i wonder if give the right conditions you would integrate your new belief system with your old belief system or would one reject the other. for instance if you were to see a spirit or hear voices of a deceased relative, would that change the conviction you have in God and Jesus, would it change the way you view your old customs from your previous culture or would you perhaps think you need to talk to a psychiatrist?

[Shell]

Ooh Stan, a man after my own heart!  LOL
 
I was in the mainland about 7 years prior to becoming a Christian and I challenged my old beliefs for probably about 6 of those years.
 
I've studied many different religions and beliefs and chose Christianity.  Because my faith is so strong, I doubt I could be persuaded to deny it now.
 
However, you do bring up very good points!!  As far as my faith in my old beliefs, I was pretty much raised in it from birth!  My beliefs were pretty much conditioned in me.  I never questioned them, they just were.
 
Being away from the environment as an adult allowed me to research it and other beliefs.  I was able to make up my own mind, versus allowing myself to follow a tradition that was simply followed because it WAS a tradition.
 
Choosing Christ was my own decision, not influenced by others around me.  That is why I believe I will remain faithful to it.
 
I do know many people, however, who jump from religion to religion, trying out different cultures and beliefs.  LOL Although I never try to lure them into my own faith in God, it is still amusing to see what they are believing next.
 
I also know a Christian pastor who is so into buddhism he might as well be a buddhist!
 
If I were to see a spirit or hear a ghost, I don't believe I will immediately react the way I used to.  I will probably get a bit creeped out, though!  LOL  My mom claims to be a Christian, but she always goes to a card reader/fortune teller.  What's crazy is that she will tell me what the card reader has said about me and sometimes things will be right on, but I won't be pulled into it and start asking questions about it.  I don't agree with where her card reader is getting the info - which I believe is something NOT Christian.

[SWM]

hehe, me and you are going to have a love / hate relationship i thinks.

Because my faith is so strong, I doubt I could be persuaded to deny it now.

you doubt your ability to change your belief?  direct experience of something is a powerful influence on our perception of the world. if you did have the experience of hearing voices or seeing visions, i doubt you could be persuaded not to change your beliefs, if you get my drift.

As far as my faith in my old beliefs, I was pretty much raised in it from birth!  My beliefs were pretty much conditioned in me.  I never questioned them, they just were.

until you experienced somethings that changed your perception of the world you never questioned your beliefs. when a new culture offered new experiences, new models of reality and new systems of belief a shift in your perception took place which involved the integration of new world view, you adopted a new system of belief and a new model of reality.



..i'll come back to this soon...sorry.....i'm back

If I were to see a spirit or hear a ghost, I don't believe I will immediately react the way I used to.  I will probably get a bit creeped out, though!

would that experience require a reorganisation of your belief system?

i just feel i should say that i am not trying to influence your christian faith here. that is not my intention for this discussion. i am just exploring your beliefs and seeing how far you are able to incorporate new experiences.

LOL  My mom claims to be a Christian, but she always goes to a card reader/fortune teller.  What's crazy is that she will tell me what the card reader has said about me and sometimes things will be right on, but I won't be pulled into it and start asking questions about it.  I don't agree with where her card reader is getting the info - which I believe is something NOT Christian.

where do you think that information is coming from?

[Shell]

hehe, me and you are going to have a love / hate relationship i thinks.

I find myself agreeing!!  lol

you doubt your ability to change your belief?  direct experience of something is a powerful influence on our perception of the world. if you did have the experience of hearing voices or seeing visions, i doubt you could be persuaded not to change your beliefs, if you get my drift.

I don't doubt my ability to change my belief.  Anyone can change.  I doubt my willingness to change.  I guess the only answer I can give is this - I have faith in my belief in Christ.  I haven't read much about ghosts in the bible, but I will believe whatever the bible states.  In the past, I've been through situations where I rejected God and refused to turn to him.  But there was always a glimmer of hope in me, urging me to seek him.  I never listened until I became saved.  And now that I am here with my heart open to him, I will only trust in him.  If I ever encountered something that appears to be a ghost or a haunting, I would no doubt react the way any normal person would - probably run like hell!  LOL  It's only human reaction.  However, I would pray about it and trust that God will help me understand what I am facing.

would that experience require a reorganisation of your belief system?

  Not reorganization, probably more like perform further research through the bible and prayer.

i just feel i should say that i am not trying to influence your christian faith here. that is not my intention for this discussion. i am just exploring your beliefs and seeing how far you are able to incorporate new experiences.
 where do you think that information is coming from?

I appreciate the discussion - very thought provoking.    As far as how far I'm able to incorporate new experiences, in my past relationship with an abusive man, my mind was twisted into believing many things no matter how absurd they were.  I'm a big fan of Dr. Sam Vaknin's work about narcissism and abuse.  I've been through torture and his articles about torture are right on.  When you are pushed physically, emotionally, and mentally, it is no doubt that your spirituality will be affected.  I was not saved during my abuse, but I had hope and no matter how much I suffered I never lost it.  I am currently dealing with someone who is also narcissistic but instead of holding onto to hope, I am holding onto God.  I feel that whether I am dealing with ghosts, hateful people, or any other thing that could pose as a potential threat to my belief, my faith in God will only strengthen.

I think faith itself is responsible for my unbending beliefs in Christ, Stan.  I don't know how else to put it.  It is one of those things that is untouchable, invisible, and even unbelievable to some.  But it is there in the heart.  Faith does unimaginable things to people and gives unimaginable strength.  If it is strong, it will lead one to overcome anything.

** I almost forgot to answer your last question-- the bible says not to believe in oracles, not to try to contact the dead, and only to believe in God.  Fortune tellers get their information from something evil.  It is dangerous stuff.  I believe that anyone who relies on someone to tell them the future is not trusting in God with their lives.  I trust that God has a plan for me.  It may not be easy, I may not always get what I want, but my path is purposeful as is everyone else's.  As intriguing as it may be to see what a card reader sees, I trust only that God knows better - he knows all.  That doesn't mean I will go along with my life, not making any choices and leaving it all up to God.  I make my choices with God as my guide.

[SWM]

I haven't read much about ghosts in the bible, but I will believe whatever the bible states.

i am pretty sure the old testament talks about spirits visiting people to tell them news or give message. it has been a long time since i read the bible. i have never finished the new testament but i finished the old testament and read certain books more than once. i am pretty sure the new testament will have nothing about visitations of spirit as this was not the way of rome.

from what i understand of the rest of your post you have your heart set on god and anything that is not confirmed or sanctioned in the sciprure is the work of the devil.  from which i conclude that you will believe in spirits and ghosts if there is evidence in the scriptures.

[cognitive]

I have read the bible , too -not recently ,it's true- however I don't remember  is stated very clearly that ghosts don't exist. I would really appreciate Cecile if you bring the verses where have you found that information.
Personally ,I have a strong reason to believe in ghost now - I used to be against their existence much of my life , until I felt the presence of one . I am in a hurry at the moment , but I will be back to tell my experiences.

[Shell]

Cognitive, I admit I am a new Christian and am still learning the bible.  I have not read anything that does not say there are no ghosts, however, I've only read where angels have visited.

Also, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would go with him to heaven.  He didn't say he would rest on earth in a ghostly spirit. 

However, if I did read in the bible where it says ghosts of people who have lived and died on earth exist, then I would believe it.  I guess I just cannot fathom why, if one has been saved and has accepted Christ, he would remain on earth instead of being in Heaven with the Father as the bible teaches.  Unless they have been resurrected for a purpose?  Or maybe they have not been saved and they are in hell? 

It's a good topic to discuss and I'd like to research it in the bible.  I find it interesting.

Stan, I've only read of angels giving messages, but I may be wrong.  Like I said earlier, I haven't read much concerning ghosts - well, okay I say "much" but I haven't read anything at all.  Only angels. 

from which i conclude that you will believe in spirits and ghosts if there is evidence in the scriptures.

Yes, I will.  I love my faith in God and I find the scriptures so amazing.

I'd really like to do some research - I, too, am quite busy as I work full time and have classes both online and face to face during the evenings. 

Thanks, Cognitive and Stan, for providing a great discussion!

[SWM]

something just occured to me! 

this is actually in the new testament, i am certain.

there is a chapter concerning chirst conversing with eliah/elias/elijah who was a character in the old testament and i am sure moses was in this chapter also, they came down in a cloud from god and spake with christ. this has to be in the gospels.

[Shell]

How interesting!

[SWM]

i think so 

i have been looking in to it, unfortunately i dont remember the chapter.

this would mean that the bible acknowledges the existance of ghosts/spirits that have an ability to come back to earth (or close enough to earth that they can contact the living)

i remembered something else about it.

the scripture describes jesus going up on a mount. i will look for a concordance online....

[SWM]

i found it.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

[Shell]

Awesome find, Stan.  Thanks for finding this! 

I wonder if ghosts of those who were bad people (rapists, murderers) become demons haunting the living?  Or would their souls roaming the earth be hell itself?

[SWM]

hhmm! now you got me thinking!

i wonder if we can get some scriptural evidence for this too.

i know there are a lot of reference to demons, possession etc.

[cognitive]

I thank you too Cecile for sharing here your thoughts ,Stan I am surprised how well you know the bible .

In my opinion ,the most interesting thing in the passage you brought here is this :

 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist.

I remembered that Elias has lived centuries years before John the Baptist ,and he did not die ,but was raptured to heaven ( if I am wrong , somebody correct me,please ) .
How is that possible for a man to live on this earth with two different identities in different times ?
What was Jesus really talking about in that passage ?

[Shell]

Stan, can you tell me what book this passage is from?   Matthew, Luke, etc.  I'm trying to find it in my study bible so I can see what the notes say about Cognitive's question.

[Shell]

Oops, nevermind, I found it in Mark, chapter 9.  My bible is NKJV and it doesn't say Elijah has already come, it says he also comes.  King James Version says, "13But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."

In my study bible, the notes explain this passage with this:  "When Jesus said that Elijah had indeed come, he was speaking of John the Baptist (Matthew 17:11-13), who had fulfilled the role prophesied for Elijah.

[SWM]

@ Cecile
see also
matt 11.14
matt 17.1
mark 6.15
luke 1.17
luke 4.25
luke 9.8

yes, elijah/elias/eliah had live and died and had fulfilled the prophecy spoken of him. then he was beheaded and arisen from the dead with moses in the presense of the father.

i always prefer KJV it was the one the universe gave to me.  the bible version is not so important god will give you the words you need to hear. he will speak the truth in your heart while you read with your mind.

Stan I am surprised how well you know the bible.

i became obsessed with the scriptures when i was ill. the psychotics reality is a magical place. i had very strong ideas of reference and religious delusions which i focused in the scriptures. it helped my recovery.

[Shell]

Thank you, Stan!!

the bible version is not so important god will give you the words you need to hear. he will speak the truth in your heart while you read with your mind.

That is probably the most beautiful thing I've read today.

[oujdaboy]

Personally, I've never seen but there were
evidence of serious people who were witnesses.
I'm interesting in to all that is unexplained, and I think
they exist but not in the form with a white cloth,
as one sees at the movies lol !

[seekinghga]

I would say that "ghosts" and "spirits" exist, though not in the objective sense.  (If I am wrong then I would just love to see SCIENTIFIC proof).  One must remember that the realm of the mind is as real as the realm of the physical body, but in a different manner.  For me to say that "spirits" don't exist - at all - would be to refute my past experience.  However, one must be wary of attributing more meaning to such things than they warrant.  To believe that a generic "spirit" is trying to communicate or send a message to you is more reasonable than to say that an Angel of the Lord delivered a Divine Revelation of the Future.

Seeing as how our minds are the medium through which we perceive such things as "spirits" (obviously, this is regardless of your beliefs on the subject), it is impossible to say whether or not these things can exist independent of the human consciousness.  I don't believe that they can, do to my personal experience - but they most certainly can behave as if they do!

[oujdaboy]

What about the aliens, they exist ?!!

[SWM]

What about the aliens, they exist ?!!

how can anybody say they dont

[liza123]

do ghosts or spirits really exist.

of course, we cannot actually say they do or do not we can only interpret out experience. the nature of ghosts and spirits and the experience of the phenomena is an entirely subjective one and science is inherently sceptic of the very word ghost.

but these experiences are very common and many people do beleive spirits and ghosts are living souls of passed humans.

does anybody have such experiences they can share or any strong opinions about the subject?

although this is not really parapsychology i have placed this question in this forum, perhaps due to my belief about the mind and esp.

I believe that they do. I know of people who have seen them. I also know that some scientific research was carried out and there were recordings of ghosts. Watch the sightings on Discovery Channel

[seekinghga]

I believe that they do. I know of people who have seen them. I also know that some scientific research was carried out and there were recordings of ghosts. Watch the sightings on Discovery Channel

I am not sure if a show on Discovery Channel can accurately be considered "scientific research."  If, say, James Randi were to watch these shows on ghosts, would they provide enough "factual evidence" (the biggest oxymoron of them all folks!) to cause him to believe in them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi

[By the way, Randi is still offering his Million Dollar prize, see the intro to his Wiki page, linked above]

[liza123]

I am not sure if a show on Discovery Channel can accurately be considered "scientific research."  If, say, James Randi were to watch these shows on ghosts, would they provide enough "factual evidence" (the biggest oxymoron of them all folks!) to cause him to believe in them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi

[By the way, Randi is still offering his Million Dollar prize, see the intro to his Wiki page, linked above]

Oh. No. I did not mean that the Discovery Channel(sightings) was based on research...Sightings is a programme that is based on true stories as narrated by the people concerned...not scientific research. I am talking about scientific research and recordings which I read some time back(cannot recall the name!)........

[liza123]

Well, it was just reported in UK that the ghost of Edward Jenner was caught in camera by a reporter or sth...just a few days ago...there is evidence for you

[S. Earl Martin]

Very interesting discussion you are having. I to am a christian and I find many things are made clearer when I pray and read the scripture. Although there are some things that cannot be explained by the word. I have many questions about many things and look forward to the day when I can ask any question and get a complete answer and know it is the truth. I can sit with God under the tree of life for an eternity and just learn. Just serve God and take it all in. Remember God answers all prayers with one of three answers. Yes, no or wait. Not my will but thy will be done.
I have an account about an experience I had. I guess I was about 17 and I was dating a girl who's brother was a friend of my brother. Her brother and his girl friend and me and my girl friend all went out to a movie. We stopped at a local make out place and were just getting started. All of a sudden my girl friend stopped and turned and started looking out the back window. She called out to her brother who was in the front seat with his girl friend that we needed to leave. He asked why? She said I see something out the window. We need to leave now. He asked see something like what? She said like gramma saw. Immediately he started the car and drove off. He asked her is it still there? She said no. I asked her what she saw? She told me it was an old man that was real skinny and he was dead. At the time I saw a white glowing spot. I thought it was a reflection on the window. Her brother dropped me off at home and I went inside. I was there about 5 maybe 10 minutes when the phone rang. It was my uncle. He was calling to tell my dad that my grand father had just died. My grand father was 6'1" and weighed about 80 pounds when he died. I asked my girlfriend latter about it and told her about my grandfather. She told me she already knew it was someone close to me. That is why he came there. She told me that some of the women in her family are born with tails and they can see things and tell when things are going to happen. I asked her if she had a tail and she told me she had one until she was about 12 and a doctor saw it and convinced her parents to have it removed. At the time this happened I wasn't saved, but the fact that she saw my grandfather's spirit or ghost or whatever made me wonder what happens when we die? Since then I have realized that salvation is found by accepting Jesus Christ. I do not know what will happen to people of other faiths when they die. I will not say they are going to Hell. That is not my place. The Bible says do not judge who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell. That the same measure you use to judge will be used to judge you. So I pray for the lost and seek the will of God in my life. Will Hindu's go to Heaven? Will Buddhist's go to Heaven? Will Muslims go to Heaven? Is there a different Heaven for different faiths? I do not know. I know that the way to Heaven is thru the blood of Christ. So my advise is accept Jesus Christ and then you can know you are going to Heaven. This world is self destructing there are so many countries with their finger on the button, that one or more of them is gonna make a big bang. It might still be possible to save it and postpone the end, but I seriously doubt that will happen. Maybe the Aliens will come down and make it all better? LOL!

[anaklio]

Magnetic stimulation of the temporal lobes can induce ghost like experiences in most people. I think in the future this effect will be used as an amusement park ride so that we will have empathy for those who have experienced ghosts.