Socio-path, rural kleptomania and anti social behavior?

[hortonpilot]

Greetings from a new member.

Wondering if this falls in someones area as the anti-social behavior i describe is beyond my understanding in what to do?
But i do think some will recognise the situation.

We have a farm in Australia in a area where many people are related and although i am there nearly each day , we dont live on the property.
Over the last 6 years we have had perhaps 150 sheep stolen despite being id tagged, never a call to say they have strayed.
She has land which has use of far and wide so it is impossible to know where the animals go.
Neighbours say nothing as she is a local girl.
A woman who is publicly notorious for stock theft has caused endless trouble for us in cutting fences , leaving gates open and impounding stock. Nothing you do seems to stop the woman. We have now locked all the gates and this seems to have slowed things down.
The RSPCA has investigated her many times for animal cruelty , she runs 150 horses on land where there is no grass, we have been in drought for the last 10 years.
*Vexatious litigant as well who thrives on conflict that would terrify others.
It is said that she is not happy where there is no conflict.
She grew up in the area and treats all the properties as her own and would come and go as she pleases if the gates were not locked.
Compulsive liar with some knowledge of the law in particular the grey areas.

Recent anti social stuff reached a new level where week old lambs and a calf went missing , taken from their mothers. This is not what normal rural people do and is hard to believe.
Family and her friends of the criminal class, brother been to jail, friends and she has been to court over theft issues.

Overtly sexual person who uses charms to manipulate others to her effect.

She took a dislike to me as stood up to her over matters.

You imagine her life full of conflict and litigation would get on top of her but it seems to give her energy?
How do you deal with these kind of people?

I treat the matter as a game but the stakes get higher and more anti-social as time goes on.
What is the limit for these kind of people and what stops them?

Probably i am dealing with a socio-path!

Any views ?


Regards
Horton
   

[Kallisti]

Call the cops?  Or has that been tried already?

[hortonpilot]

Kallisti,
           as i point out the woman uses her sexual charms and seems un-touchable as she is on good terms with the local copper, two members of her family have been to jail, you go to the police stock squad and you are ignored, the local council is the same, at every point you meet people who are unwilling to do their job.
Final straw is the typical criminal attitude of arrogance and in some way it is your fault that you have upset them.
No responsibility for actions.
Double standard of complete disrespect for you property and rights.
I have tried .

Horton

[hortonpilot]

This one is really a practical application with what you might have studied on sociopaths.

Seems none of you studied behavior on the margins where people feel no guilt, total self-centeredness and lack of any normal thought?

Any one worked in the prison system?

person i am describing fits in here.


Horton

[SWM]

hi horton, i appreciate how this problem might be frustrating for you.

i am not sure what it is that you want help with. you are asking how to deal with a criminal, you dont the police are responsible for dealing with criminals. if the police are not doing their job then it is them that need to be held accountable.

trying to control the behaviour of another citizen criminal or not is going to cause as many problems as not getting involved.

the only thing i would be thinking of doing is collecting evidence against her and/or setting her up for a fail of some kind.

[voodoo scientist]

Get the cops to help or go home. Antisocial people literally don't care, don't play by any rules and treat everything as "how do I get what I want." You are only relevant insofar as you either enable them to or prevent them from getting what they want. There's nothing you can do or say that will change their mind because at a fundamental level they don't care what you have to say, and know a person who isn't antisocial will never go to the same lengths as they will to get what they want.

The only way to 'beat' an antisocial person is to convince them that you are willing and capable of going as far and farther than they are which isn't always possible as many anti-social people also suffer from narcissistic or otherwise deranged world views which preclude that.

[hortonpilot]

voodoo,

             kind of a better reply , more towards what i seek.
But since these people do have to be dealt with it helps if you have an idea rather than bury  your head in the sand and pretend they don't exist .
From time to time we come in contact with them as they are not all locked away

I am interested in understanding the mechanisms  any good references ?

*Mechanism where-by they will go beyond the normal boundaries is what interests me  and how one applies pressure to get them under control.

I have a very interesting book ,
" How dangerous men think." This deals with the subject of violence and is an excellent read.
Surprisingly there is a lot you can do and it is possible in many circumstances to get control of the situation, provided you understand.

There is a point where the boundaries are reached and presumably you can face off and defend your position.
Perhaps even get your opponent to lose interest when his situation becomes threatened ?

Beyond irritating or upsetting that person exists a state where the person may even submit and may even find you have turned the tables, how do you arrive at it ?

Day in day out therapists deal with these kind of people  so there must be a formula for dealing with them , otherwise they would run riot?

Any reasonable person can deal with normal people who present very little challenge, such as people with relationship problems or anxieties , these are easy cases to deal with.

Sociopaths on the other hand are more interesting .

There must be some reading sources on the subject?

Horton.

[SWM]

some reading
http://www.ptypes.com/antisocialpd.html
http://guidance.nice.org.uk/CG77/QuickRefGuide/pdf/English

the problem is that you are not doing psychotherapy or behaviour modification with this woman. psychotherapy is a relationship that both parties agree to enter. both parties are aware that something is being done to change one of those parties in some way.

[hortonpilot]

Yes, true not doing any therapy but still you couldn't do any therapy without understanding the persons viewpoint?

So why is this a problem?
Surely knowledge can be applied as a way of better understanding the situation.

Are you quibiling about where i placed the topic?


Horton

[voodoo scientist]

Let me explain the strategic calculation the antisocial person would make:

(Your perception of the object's value * your willingness and ability to get what you want) VS Infinity

There's nothing you can do unless you're willing to kill her for it, because an anti-social person is willing to kill you if you push them far enough. The only correct course of action is to get out of the way or get someone who can physically project their will onto the anti-social person, such as by jailing or institutionalization. If the latter is not available, you lose by default. Sorry.

Theoretically, you could create physical boundaries (like tall electric fences everywhere) that literally prevented them from doing something, but it would only work so long as the physical boundary lasted.

[SWM]

Yes, true not doing any therapy but still you couldn't do any therapy without understanding the persons viewpoint?

So why is this a problem?
Surely knowledge can be applied as a way of better understanding the situation.

yes knowledge can be applied to understand the situation. but there are completely different conditions surrounding the relationship. what happens in the therapeutic relationship is not what happens outside the therapeutic relationship. you may do you reading and research thinking that you have gained some insight into the mind of this woman only to find that she kills you and stuffs you in the trunk of the car the first time you confront her.

Are you quibiling about where i placed the topic?


Horton

no, i wont quibble like that, if there was a problem with you or your post i would tell you straight out.

[Farsight]

Horton: there's no talking to people like this. They sneer in contempt at your good nature, and they have neither guilt nor remorse for the things they do. They respect only strength, and the only way to "win" is to play hardball. You have to be outspoken, forceful, assertive, and demanding of the police and council. But since you don't live on the farm you aren't a local, and you aren't defending your home and livelihood. You can't be there to face her down or catch her in the act and say "You're on camera babe, stealing sheep" followed by taunts about the lack of roast lamb dinners in jail. Maybe you could pay somebody to be there for a while. Pick the right sort of person and you could fight fire with fire. But if you push it then turn your back and leave that land unattended, when you come back you won't have any stock left. There is no limit to this sort of person. Unless you're going to be there with company and a pickup and guns and dogs and lamps to set those limits, they'll sneer more and more and push it further and further. So I'd say forget it.  

[hortonpilot]

SWM & Farsight,

          i bought the property 25 years ago and we lived there til about 10 years back. Then i moved house about 15klms away.
I go there almost everyday to do some work , even if it is only for a few hours, so the place is not left unattended.

What you say about the violent limit she might go to is something i wondered about, but she has no history of personal violence.
The woman is neurotic and feeds off drama that would tire most people.
Was a story that she had a bloke busted for dope who refused to let her graze her horses on his property.

Over the years she has manipulated the locals with her feminine ways. I don't subscribe to this in any form from people and have always stood up for my rights.
You stand up for your rights and you get it , or you are easy going and you still get it.

What you say about there being no limit to this sort of person seems right.
*Why do these people have no limit to where they will go with their actions?

We are in the drought and have been for the last 8 years so the idea of stealing stock is silly because there is no grass in the area. This in fact creates work for that person , even to fatten them for market will cost money.
This gives you an idea of the irrationality of the person.
At present a couple of people have said she is the culprit and you wonder if she will come unstuck of her own accord?

As you say you turn your back and drop your guard........
All the gates are now padlocked , i closed a track by falling trees across it to keep her out on horseback.

How far do these kind of people push and what is the motivation?
Is it that i just stand in her way?

Horton

[SWM]

they do have limits but the problem that you are facing is because the morals and values of this person are not concordant with the accepted morals and value of society. she is not part of this society and makes her own rules based on her values. society and the environment are there to provide and satisfy her needs.

the motivation is self preservation and self determination. some behaviour may be due to revenge and resentment. not much different form the rest of us just that we have an awareness and responsibility to other peoples rights and values.

[hortonpilot]

Swm,

so what stops this type of person?
What discourages them from revenge?

It is pretty interesting stuff in that the behavior they use in dealing with others is not what they tolerate from others.


Horton.

[hortonpilot]

I regret having to write further on the matter.
Business of the stolen stock had to be dealt with and i started some procedings but the police did nothing, but word would have got out that i knew of the sheep being stolen.

*Figure this rather than being more cautious , the response is aggressive.
As with the response over other matters when you defend yourself  and your rights the person just gets more aggressive.

Is this a typical sociopaths response??


was some talkthat the person might have bought or optioned the property next door.
Track/roadway exists on the boundary line where i was clearing the trees on the fence-line, some were left over the road as the job is not finished.
Road is not used by anyone.
l
Last week noticed that the trees had been cleared by hand with a chainsaw and the road more or less cleared for horses to pass.
this job was in a remote area and would have taken some hours, a quad-bike and a 4wd appear to have been parked on the verge of the road in the neighbors land, so it was a two person job. At this point there are two obvious No trespass signs.

the kids and i entered our property on Sat to find some cars, three cars we have parked in from the fence 50yds had all the windows shot out and the body with bullet holes. 20 or so shots fired.
With some effort we found a shell casing , so it would appear some shots were fired from within the property.

later in the eve we heard some shots just before dark, obviously the kids were scared and i was concerned.
Can't say for sure if it was the same person but ......?

Mon.

 i go to the Police  to report the matter but the woman says they have no way of identifying the shooters and can do nothing.
Just ring when it happens again and they will come out!
I don't have a phone there and the mobile service is in a remote area .

The copper pissed me off because i mentioned the safety of the children.

Any ideas?


Horton

[hortonpilot]

Some further events a couple months down the track.

Interestingly for the first time i met the new husband ,
My impression was he is a charmer and very adept with people.
I then start to wonder about his possible sociopathic tendencies and the fact he is well liked and a competitive sportsman and has already lied to me in our first few minutes of the conversation.

I then wonder from the point of view of sociopaths what type of partners do they select?
Are they attracted to other sociopaths from the point of having something in common?

This person works within the government and it was very difficult have a conversation that addresses your own concerns.
it brought me back to what SWM said,
"they do have limits but the problem that you are facing is because the morals and values of this person are not concordant with the accepted morals and value of society. she is not part of this society and makes her own rules based on her values. society and the environment are there to provide and satisfy her needs."

"the motivation is self preservation and self determination. some behaviour may be due to revenge and resentment."

What i found frustrating was that beneath the veneer of seeming reasonable exists complete self-interest . Meaning that the husband is not really much different from the woman.

Is any form of constructive discussion possible ?
If so how do you communicate?
Issues of the vandalism and fire-arms responsibility were brushed aside , seemed the visit by the police was more a concern.

Ironically a Doctor at work had mentioned how he felt people with  sociopathic tendencies rise through the ranks in the medico-hospital system and how difficult they were.


Horton

[ELADA]

Maybe if you install some security cameras? They don't have to be expensive, just slightly hidden.

Once you have her activity on film, none of her manipulation with the law will work because that is solid proof.

I have an antisocial "friend" and i was very suspicious of her motives. But the worst thing you can do is let her know that you're on to her. These people will view us as targets to be eliminated.

I act very friendly against that antisocial girl and (this is optional) i act a little dumber than i actually am. So that way she doesn't view me as a threat and will not be careful about how she behaves around me (all while i carry my MP3 player in my pocket turned on voice recorder).

These people are EXTREMELY dangerous and sometimes if you call the police without proof, they will walk free and then create something horrible for you.

So unless you have a good lawyer, a bodyguard and a gun, i wouldnt suggest provoking such a person (i struggle with that rule... oops)

Good luck Horton

[NataEames]

Elada, i have a similar situation. Theres this chick (shes 24) and shes been causing me trouble with my friends, i also have a post on the subject. I agree about not provoking them. Its best not to be viewed as an enemy in their eyes.

[hortonpilot]

Elada ,

 difficult to be more than civil to the people.
you give an inch and they take advantage of you.

What you say is right , keep your enemy closer than your friends!

The tragic thing is they are friends with the police , so even the best case against them does not get a proper investigation.
I have gone a bit higher up the police chain but what can you do then if there is no interest?

I did try not provoking them for some years..........  they just stole sheep and entered my property at will and it got worse.
So i jacked up and they retaliated by shooting up my cars.
Police warned them and i outed the behavior not mentioning names this brought them under the eye of the police.
At least now they don't trespass.

For the police it is now a bit difficult i have a good case that the investigation was not carried out properly and my evidence was discredited by the culprit -chum of the copper.
The evidence was never properly verified with me the complainant and the copper just took the word of the other party, who says the cars were damaged at an earlier date .
The property owner said he had photographic evidence to support his case, i asked were were the photos taken, he pointed to a spot a mile away up the road.
I mentioned the actual damaged cars were in a different spot and are still there.
He seemed to miss the significance of what i said.
The copper stupidly put his neck in the noose , there being a obvious conflict of interests between a person being investigated and the police.
And that he has failed to identify the photos properly.

It will be interesting to see what happens ?


Horton

Horton

[gone]

I sympathise with you, testing times. The best thing you can do is not rise to her, she will be doing many things just to provoke a reaction in you. They thrive on conflict. You and I may enjoy laughing, these people get the same enjoyment from annoying people. The best thing you can do is protect your property best you can and ignore and accept her as part of being.
There is a behaviour disorder called Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) and Conduct Disorder, these people are extremely difficult, attention seeking, conflict loving, controlling, demanding, spiteful. She sounds like one of these people. The only way you will ever win is to accept these people exist and there is no winning (ignore them and they get to steal your property - don't ignore them and they love the drama & conflict they cause), the only winning is for you to accept the situation and not let it bother you.

[hortonpilot]

Kind of becomes a problem  in a philosophical sense?
I do see where you are coming from with this idea and will think about it.

Can i create a diversion so it is someone else that gets the strife?

Do these sociopaths have many "people on the go" at one time, meaning do they typically have many issues running at once?

Any clues as to her interest in me as a victim, why not someone else?

Horton

[gone]

You say yourself you are a victim of hers. It seems this is the relationship that has formed between you. Now you both have these roles as your identity in this relationship, until something changes. Some people wont allow themselves to be victims.

The more you respond the more enjoyment she will derive from it. Some people are not rational, you can not reason with these people. If she feels she isn't getting to you, she'll get fed up eventually. I would pretend you have some more pressing on your mind, let her believe she is insignificant in your life by not responding.
The relationship will contunue as her the intimidator and you the victim until something changes. She could go to jail but the relationship remains the same. An intimidator needs a victim. DON'T BE A VICTIM. The relationship needs to change and that's up to you. Ignore her, befriend her, don't fuel the conflict.

I have to agree with ELIDA

"I have an antisocial "friend" and i was very suspicious of her motives. But the worst thing you can do is let her know that you're on to her. These people will view us as targets to be eliminated.

I act very friendly against that antisocial girl and (this is optional) i act a little dumber than i actually am. So that way she doesn't view me as a threat and will not be careful about how she behaves around me (all while i carry my MP3 player in my pocket turned on voice recorder)"

THIS IS ALSO MY APPROACH TO DEALING WITH THESE KIND OF PEOPLE. I've also come to realise they may be angry, vengeful on minute but it's forgot the next, they don't hold grudges or dwell on things, so why should you.

As long as you feel a victim you will be. And the situation will not change until the relationship does.

[hortonpilot]

What i am experiencing is out of the realm of most peoples experience.
I have but given the barest details of this 10 year saga and the constant strife this person has inflicted on the community .
I do not use the word victim myself  for obvious reasons..... i used it twice to describe the situation for reasons of clarity.
If you think i have behaved like the classic victim you are very wrong, in my work i see people who are victims and they are not like me.

Changing the dynamic is a good point and one i am already doing.
Non participation works with this woman and is effective.

The new husband is also difficult , a formidable team which has to date beaten the local police , council , legal system,RSPCA, Parks & Wildlife authority, various people just moved from the area.

Thee trouble is how much do you let go, in being apathetic you find basic abuses , stock put on your land while you away , water and belongings stolen, gates etc.
The sociopath sees it as their right to take and damage , especially if you do nothing .
Read about violence in attacks and the people who survive the worst attacks are those who struggle the most.

It is a difficult cycle , the struggle to not be the victim saves you for the moment but creates intense resentment that leads to later strife.


Sociopaths do hold grudges and dwell on the past, this is a fact.

The dumbing down is also a handy tool, always surprises me what people will tell you and of course nice to have an advantage

Horton
You may not have encountered it or read about it?

[gone]

I meant to offer suggestions, on reading my text again it sound like I'm telling you what to do, as if you haven't already, sorry.
She sounds like a bully. A pair of bullies now. What to do with bullies?
All people have weaknesses, I wonder what their weakness is, maybe you could find out and target that. Maybe she has a fear of scarecrows, put some in your fields. hehe you never know.
But seriously it must be hell for you.

Why has she seen off all these authorities? Why do they run? Can't you form an alliance against them? then hit them with an anti social order. If you wanted to go to war on her speak to other people in the area, collect evidence and form an angry mob with the intention of seeing her off. Think strategy too, imagine you are a business and she's your major competition, you want her gone, get her bad publicity, money speaks, pay people and use methods as mad as hers. lol.

With well wishes.