Revisiting George Orwell's 1984

[moreresearch]

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I've been re-reading George Orwell's 1984 and am thinking about the following scene....

O'Brien speaking to Winston:

"There are three stages in your reintegration," said O'Brien. "There is learning, there is understanding, and there is acceptance. It is time for you to enter upon the second stage."

Now here O'brien asks then explains why society works as it does:

"And now let us get back to the question of 'how' and 'why'. You understand well enough how the Party maintains itself in power. Now tell me why we cling to power. What is our motive? Why should we want power? Go on, speak," he added as Winston remained silent.
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"Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me? You are thinking," O'Brien said, "that my face is old and tired. You are thinking that I talk of power, and yet I am not even able to prevent the decay of my own body. Can you not understand, Winston, that the individual is only a cell? The weariness of the cell is the vigour of the organism. Do you die when you cut your fingernails? We are the priests of power," he said. "God is power. But at present power is only a word so far as you are concerned. It is time for you to gather some idea of what power means. The first thing you must realize is that power is collective. The individual only has power in so far as he ceases to be an individual.

You know the Party slogan: 'Freedom is Slavery'. Has it ever occurred to you that it is reversible? Slavery is freedom. Alone - free - the human being is always defeated. It must be so, because every human being is doomed to die, which is the greatest of all failures. But if he can make complete, utter submission, if he can escape from his identity, if he can merge himself in the Party so that he is the Party, then he is all-powerful and immortal. The second thing for you to realize is that power is power over human beings. Over the body, but, above all, over the mind. Power over matter - external reality, as you would call it - is not important. Already our control over matter is absolute. We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull. There is nothing that we could not do. Invisibility, levitation - anything. I could float off this floor like a soap bubble if I wish to. I do not wish to, because the Party does not wish it. You must get rid of those nineteenth century ideas about the laws of Nature. We make the laws of Nature.

This scene raises at least a few questions for me, some of which are:

• First, what is the psychological process that allows Winston to "accept" the Big Brother Society, as O'Brien explains in the initial quote above regarding "reintegration"?  Is there anything that Winston can do to protect himself from "acceptance" of Big Brother's concepts?
• Secondly, what type of personality makes-up the individual in "the Party"?  Why does that personality seek "power" for power-sake?
• Lastly, why do "Party" members subscribe to the idea of a "collective" for power-sake, when submitting to a collective means diminished power for the individual, even if the collective has unlimited power?  I don't understand the psychology of this irony?

[SWM]

this is a fascinating post.

i not sure there are any straight answers to your questions. these things are contextual. process is conditional.

define the conditions more acurately and i may be able to help you understand the process.


what is the bigger picture you are trying to fit this into. i imagine there is a bigger picture. you are studying orwell? or, you are interested in th psychology of oligarchical politics?

[moreresearch]

this is a fascinating post.

i not sure there are any straight answers to your questions. these things are contextual. process is conditional.

define the conditions more acurately and i may be able to help you understand the process.


what is the bigger picture you are trying to fit this into. i imagine there is a bigger picture. you are studying orwell? or, you are interested in th psychology of oligarchical politics?

Yea, I'm certainly not seeking "straight answers," simply thinking and discussion.

When you say "define the conditions more accurately" I am not sure I understand what you are asking.  Do you mean the conditions under which the human thinks or behaves as they do?  For example, today's American society?

With respect to the larger picture, I am attempting to engage in a psychological discussion around the points raised in the original post. Specifically, I'd like to better understand what psychologically drives a human to act in their own [individual] disinterest?  Why does a person "accept," as does Winston, oppression?  Why do we allow sociopaths to manipulate our behavior?  And yes, I'm trying to better understand this in the context of society today in America, which is an Oligarchical regime where the oligarchs are currently flexing their muscle at the expense of the vast majority of the World's population.

Is this helpful?  Please let me know if I need to expand further.  Thankx.

[SWM]

Yea, I'm certainly not seeking "straight answers," simply thinking and discussion.

When you say "define the conditions more accurately" I am not sure I understand what you are asking.  Do you mean the conditions under which the human thinks or behaves as they do?  For example, today's American society?

i was thinking more interms of defining winston or putting winston into a context. from the quote above we do not know anything about winston except what is in the quote. to arrive at a conclusion about what psychological process is at work we need to know more about winston.

With respect to the larger picture, I am attempting to engage in a psychological discussion around the points raised in the original post. Specifically, I'd like to better understand what psychologically drives a human to act in their own [individual] disinterest? 

why people engage in actions that have no benefit to themselves. (playing devils advocate) we cannot say that winston is acting in his own disinterest. it may be in his interest to accept the BBsociety.

Why does a person "accept," as does Winston, oppression?  Why do we allow sociopaths to manipulate our behavior? 

i think that each individual will go through a process that is unique to them. some examples: a person may accept because they have given up trying to fight what is unacceptable. a person may accept because they have never known anything different. a person may accept because they have been coerced/persuaded to adopt certain attitudes or beleifs.

what is acceptance and how does an individaul come to that state?

And yes, I'm trying to better understand this in the context of society today in America, which is an Oligarchical regime where the oligarchs are currently flexing their muscle at the expense of the vast majority of the World's population.

Is this helpful?  Please let me know if I need to expand further.  Thankx.

we have a culture that has grown from the conditions of th past, a culture of greed, and seflishness, a cultrue that breeds seperateness beyond the family unit and exclusion in commercial endeavours in the name of personal ambition and achievement with the aquistion of wealth as a measure of success. many people do not question this but accept that this culture is a healthy civilised way of life. it is accpeted because it is the way things are and the way things where and the way things will be. so what is the point of trying to change anything. accept it, you must particpate or be left behind.  que sera sera, whatever will be, will be. sing it joyfully, and accept it wholeheartedly.

[Enigma]

we have a culture that has grown from the conditions of th past, a culture of greed, and seflishness, a cultrue that breeds seperateness beyond the family unit and exclusion in commercial endeavours in the name of personal ambition and achievement with the aquistion of wealth as a measure of success. many people do not question this but accept that this culture is a healthy civilised way of life. it is accpeted because it is the way things are and the way things where and the way things will be. so what is the point of trying to change anything. accept it, you must particpate or be left behind.  que sera sera, whatever will be, will be. sing it joyfully, and accept it wholeheartedly.

The results of Capitalism.


The state of the United States today is the result of capitalism, globalization, and rampant global overpopulation.