Fear of Death... My thoughts please comment :P

[Patrickmeister]

It is irrational to fear something that you will never have to witness... It's like fearing that your eye will be gouged by a demented unicorn. Death is something that you do not witness, as you are dead, the becoming of one that no longer belongs to the world you were once a part of. Our very existence is defined by our parts in our world; if we are no longer a part of that world, we simply do not exist. The fear of non-existance is similar to the demented unicorn theory where the fear is irrational as what you were is no longer there; you are neither a corpse, a soul or a force of nature, you are simply nothing, it is irrational to fear not being anything at all, because you will not witness the nothingness, as nothingness (you) can not observe, or experience nothingness. This means that you will not actually witness death as you instantly become non-existant. Therefore, the fear of death is irrational, as death is something you will never have to witness.

My original thoughts, comment, and try to disprove my comment... I wana see people's thoughts on it

[S. Earl Martin]

I have already had several discussions about this and similar topics on this sight. VooDoo Scientist and I have had quite a lengthy debate about it. Who believes in God? And I forget which other topic we had, but here is part of what was discussed.
The law of physics shows that matter and energy are never lost. That nothing just dissappears. To think that when we die we somehow just become nothing. Our physical bodies break down into base elements. Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Our inner being the energy that drives life has to go somewhere. Weather you call it a soul or whatever. It takes a great deal of somekind of energy to sustain life. This energy is not electricty. It can be measured using a number of different methods. If you believe that it just disappears that defies the laws of physics and thermo dynamics. If you believe it is recycled back into the cosmos that is reincarnation. If you believe that we are reborn into another life as another being. That also is reincarnation. Any of these beliefs takes faith in the process. There is no proof of what happens after we die. Although eye witness testomony of near death experience suggests that we do go somewhere. I personally have seen Heaven in a near death experience and have absolute faith that is where I am going when I die. The question is this in my opinion? Where would you want to go? To dissappear into nothingness or spend eternity in a perfect place surrounded by the ones you love? Peace!   

[grasshopper]

Having no illusions whatsoever about the existence of a hereafter, I must confess to being dead scared of being dead, and were I hypothetically given the option to purchase eternal life, even as a lowly worm or louse, I'd tender my credit card immediately. 

The gravestone of W. C. Fields reportedly bears the following inscription : " All things considered, I'd rather be fishing."

[nlitenme]

IMHO, people fear change and the unknown.  Death is change from life as we know it.  Death is also unknown (to most?). 

[Patrickmeister]

Yes, but my thought is that, energy (aka, mass) is lost when we die, as we stay alive due to the consumption (food) and use (moving) of energy, but, a dead corpse does not eat or move, so, we simply disappear, since there is no intake of energy. I personally am not religious by any means, but, I believe that dying would be comething like an eternal knockout; you simply are not aware of anything, and you do not know or feel anything, you are nothing.

Nlitenme has stated, correctly that change and the unknown are the causes of most fears, but, is it rational to fear something that you may never even have to witness?  Like I said, there are no demented unicorns trying to gouge you...

[pert -5]

I believe that dying would be comething like an eternal knockout; you simply are not aware of anything, and you do not know or feel anything, you are nothing.

Yes, precisely.  But I don't think that the "nothing" of the mathematician is the sensible way to go, it's a bit too nilihistic.  Think more towards the lines of the "Nothing" of the Infinite, if you will.  You walk upon a long and desolate plain only to see that the Plain is you, but you are It and It is, and will be, as ever It was.  "Time that eateth his children hath not power on them that would not be children of Time."

That's my one cent...

Nlitenme has stated, correctly that change and the unknown are the causes of most fears, but, is it rational to fear something that you may never even have to witness?

My opinion would be that the question of whether one will ever witness their death or not creates an uncertainty which promotes fear.

...aaand, there's the second one.

[S. Earl Martin]

Whatever your belief as to what happens when we die it requires faith. It comes down to:
What you know
What you think you know
What you don't know and
What you can't know.
Again energy and matter are never lost just converted. It requires energy to sustain life. More than just the energy that allows physical movement and growth. If it was that simple humans could have created or recreated life in a scientific experiment. As it is it takes life to make life so something, call it the spark of life has to be passed on. This same spark is more than just electricity. If it were electricity the creation of life would be a simple process.
If you chose to believe that you just disappear and desolve into nothingness even though that contradicts the laws of thermo dynamics that is your choice.
At one time in my life I was an athiests. I was totally devoted to logic. If I could measure it and prove or disprove it that was how I dealt with things. After years of seeing things I just couldn't explain I realized that there had to be some creative and controling force working in nature. Seeing people and things die and thinking I would never see them again just didn't seem right. This is when I realized that God must exsist. I couldn't prove it, but I knew it had to be so. As time went on more and more things occured to strengthen this belief. Two things occured in the last few years to really bring this home.

1. My wife got cancer and was given the wrong medication. She went in a coma and was in the ICU. While there I realized the medication she was recieving was causeing her distress and ordered it removed.  When she woke up she was damaged from the reaction to the medication. She died a short time later. Right before she died she motioned for me to lean over so I could hear her. (One of her lungs had collapsed). This is an account as to what was said.

(whispering) Baby Baby?

Yeah Baby what's wrong?

I see Angels.

You see Angels Baby?

Yeah I see Angels. What do I do?

If you see Angels it's okay. You can go with the Angels.

Really?

Yeah it's okay

Okay.

A few minutes later she went home.
Now you can believe that she was hallucinating. That she was delerious. That is your choice. I on the other hand "know" what she saw. I "know" where she is.

2. I have Leukemia. I have nearly died several times. One of those times I saw Heaven. This is an account of what happened in this circumstance.
I had been in bed for about a week. Just getting up to use the restroom and get a drink from the sink. I managed to pull myself out of bed and make it to the kitchen to get something to eat. I was setting at my table and a friend of mine knocked on the door. I am a song writter and he wanted to hear my latest CD. We went to my music studio and I reached for the remote to turn on the CD player. The room turned upside down. I woke up laying on the bathroom floor. Wondering if I was dying? Then the ceiling desolved and I saw a hedge. It was so big and thick that no one could have penitrated it. I was wonder if I was dead? I didn't see a tunnel of light or any of the things I had read about in near death experiences. Then the hedge moved back and a book floated in view. The pages began to flip by and it was every good deed I had done. I began to feel pretty good about myself. Then the pages reversed. It was every sin I had ever commited. I felt ashamed and embarrased. All I could say was forgive me Lord over and over. When it stopped I heard a voice say "you are forgiven". Then the hedge was back. I saw people on the other side dressed in white. I realized I could just step thru it. So I thought okay this is it. As I tried to step thru I was pulled back. I landed back in my body with my friend standing over me yelling don't die. You can't die. Eventually I recovered.

Again you can discount this if you wish, but I do not fear death. I know where I am going, I have already been there. Peace!

[daryyy]

The gravestone of W. C. Fields reportedly bears the following inscription : " All things considered, I'd rather be fishing."

[Patrickmeister]

Now that I think about it, I think that what happens after death, and whether you fear it or not, is something that is personal, and different from all. Earl, I'm very sorry for your loss...

[S. Earl Martin]

I appreciate that. We had 21 years together and I couldn't have asked for a better wife. I have found a herbal supplement (Pau D' Arco)  that is slowing the progress of the Leukemia. It will probably still get me eventually, but we all go sooner or later. It is not when you go, but where you go that matters. Blessings and good fortune be yours.

[Patrickmeister]

I guess we will all die and decompose eventually, no point in worrying about death, as it can happen right now, just as much as in another century... Live life to its fullest and when the time comes, the time shal come...

[S. Earl Martin]

Plan like you will live forever, but live like you will die tomorrow.

[Patrickmeister]

well put

[S. Earl Martin]

There are a lot of disadvantages to getting old, but there are a few advantages.
One of the things I have pondered is I have spent all this time and effort learning and gaining wisdom. When I die what was it all for? What is the point if it just disappears? Material wealth I can leave to my decendants, but the knowledge in my head is not so easily passed on. Who I am as a person is not possible to convey.

[grasshopper]

Some memories, skills and wisdom can be passed on while one is still alive.  Memoirs could be compiled into books that enlighten and uplift long after the writer is no more, while time-acquired aptitudes for guitar or piano playing, corporate negotiation, chess strategy or auto repair could be taught to loved ones so as to enrich their lives for decades afterwards.   The amassed content of the cranium need not necessarily be lost to others when one dies, provided that some of it is shared in some way during life.

[Patrickmeister]

yes, but, it only benefits the ones that recieve it. The dead are dead, and does not benefit them at all...

[grasshopper]

Agreed, but such a passing on of knowledge can be fulfilling in and of itself, to a person nearing the final curtain call before eternal nothingness.

[Patrickmeister]

yes, agreed..

[S. Earl Martin]

Ahhh! There in lies the rub. I do not intend to fad away. I entend to continue to exsist and grow. In a different place and time so to speak. "You can not kill me. You can only make me stronger". I believe there is much more to this exsistance than just procreation and trying to improve the human condition. I intend to exsist forever. Growing and learning. Becoming part or the cosmos. Becoming part of infinity.

As far as passing on knowledge goes unfortunatly that has proved to be quite difficult in some ways. I have a high IQ and alot of what I have done is beyond the comprehension of most people. I don't mean to sound vain, but it is true. My friend that I mentioned before and I would sit and discuss different topics. Other people would just sit there and be amazed at what we where discussing. They even wanted to record or video tape it, but we decided that was not a good idea. Some of the knowledge I have passed on. Some I deamed to dangorus and have not allowed anyone to have it. Life is a series of continuing choices that we can not fully comprehend the consequences. Once done can not be undone. May wisdom abound in you.   

[grasshopper]

Escapologist Harry Houdini was the last person with the chutspah to declare that he could physically transcend mortality, but the world has waited long enough for his promised communication from the great beyond for most observers to sadly conclude that there is indeed no great beyond.  His stated determination and considerable skills notwithstanding, Mr. Houdini clearly did not succeed in living forever.

That said, harboring the optimistic expectation of becoming the only human being ever to live indefinitely has got to be a darn sight less depressing than the traditional and more pragmatic view which holds biological life to be a rigidly finite, non-renewable quantity, subsequent to which all forms of consciousness officially cease. Boundless optimism is no doubt good for the soul, and is arguably preferable to resignation or dispair, even if that optimism lacks any basis capable of withstanding scientific scrutiny.

[S. Earl Martin]

Harry Houdini did claim that he could transcend mortality. Weather he was successful has been a topic of debate. Further weather he was the "last person" is also debatable.

Also lack of evidence does not prove anything. Only hard tanagable evidance is considered proof. I understand that eye witness testomony is the least realible evidance, but because we lack the ability to pass from life to death and back at will it is the only evidence avalible.

Your statements "biological life to be finite" is a belief and is no more provable than the belief in an after life. Actually it is less provable because even if you could search for an after life. You could never be sure you had searched everywhere. On the other hand. Accounts of near death experiences and evidance of spirits and ghosts suggest that something remains after we die.
People have given detailed accounts of what they believe to be past lives. Information that they could not have known unless they were actually there in some sense. I personally believe that these accounts are not past lives, but that they are tapping into another dimension. Time is relative to the speed of light and if things can transend the speed of light. Then they could travel back in time. Everything is happening at the same time on a cosmic level. I believe the past life experience is somehow people seeing another time. Weather or not they lived in this time or are just somehow seeing it, is uncertain. 

[Patrickmeister]

I think that there isn't a point in arguing about life and death, if we know for sure that we ARE going to all die, but we ARE all living, therefore, I say, stop arguing and just enjoy life! (unless ur a troll...)

[grasshopper]

Earl Martin's thoughts on the hereafter are interesting to read, even if I don't necessarily agree with them, so I would not describe this discussion as being argumentative at all, but even if it were, the tone has been civil all along, which conforms with the preferences of the moderators. 

[S. Earl Martin]

Agreed: I don't feel this is argumentitive. I have had this discussion in the past. I enjoy other peoples points of view and have no problem if people disagree. Providing they don't take it personally Or resort in childish name calling etc. I am a mediator so this to makes disscussions more productive.

However I do agree with enjoying life. One of my motos has always been "just have fun". So many people are so ridged and demanding. It's like if they have fun then they are somehow not being professional or attentive. There is a difference between being careless and haveing fun.
When I was a kid I used to watch movies where people sang and danced all the time. I thought wow I want to live there. I was to young to realize that it wasn't real. I was so disapointed when I realized it was just a movie. I still sing at home or when I am walking in a store. I was in the waiting room at my doctors office yesterday and I had my back turned. I sang one of the songs I am working on. When I finished several people had walked in and they started applauding. They were suprised that I wrote the song.

I actually need to get to work, but a little more.
When I didn't believe in God it was very difficult to see God working in my life. When I accepted that God exsisted. It became much easier to see God in not only my life, but in all of reality.
Believeing in pink elephants does not make them real, but not believeing doesnt make them not real. If you chose to not see them that is your choice. If you chose to look for them then you may find them.

Peace

[Enigma]

It is irrational to fear something that you will never have to witness... It's like fearing that your eye will be gouged by a demented unicorn. Death is something that you do not witness, as you are dead, the becoming of one that no longer belongs to the world you were once a part of. Our very existence is defined by our parts in our world; if we are no longer a part of that world, we simply do not exist. The fear of non-existance is similar to the demented unicorn theory where the fear is irrational as what you were is no longer there; you are neither a corpse, a soul or a force of nature, you are simply nothing, it is irrational to fear not being anything at all, because you will not witness the nothingness, as nothingness (you) can not observe, or experience nothingness. This means that you will not actually witness death as you instantly become non-existant. Therefore, the fear of death is irrational, as death is something you will never have to witness.

My original thoughts, comment, and try to disprove my comment... I wana see people's thoughts on it

What about the untold numbers of deaths glorified by the media that we witness over our lifetime?  You honestly think death is something we never witness or that fear of death is irrational?

[Enigma]

Now you can believe that she was hallucinating. That she was delerious. That is your choice. I on the other hand "know" what she saw. I "know" where she is.

Or do you just think you know...?

[S. Earl Martin]

Hello Enigma, weather I know this or think I know would depend on perspective. On one hand I can't be actually absolutly sure, but I am so confidant and my faith is so strong that I am as sure that I know it as can be humanly possible.

Also I like your screen name. Enigma is one of my favoite groups. Although I am not sure if you are refering to them or to an enigma in general.

[Vortex]

Related to my personal struggle with mortality since i was about 6 or 7. I'm 49 now and am 90%+ convinced through observation and reasoning that we simply wink out of existance. I have always been horrified at that prospect. Simply put, it is a fear of no longer experiencing life regardless of the pain to happiness ratio. I have experienced enough joy to have a love of life and therefore cannot bear what i see as the probability of non existence.

To elaborate I would also include in that fear the loss of self as i know it even if there is say reincarnation.  This is why one of the worst ways to die to me is alzheimers. Sure you're technically still alive but you are no longer the self you were much like being reincarnated. I do believe that the self that I am is directly related to my past experiences and the continuity of time experienced through memory.

A question I have often pondered is IF i am who i am because of the experiences i have had filtered through the physical lens of my genetic makeup and predispositions, would I change my past regardless of how horrible it may have been?

[S. Earl Martin]

Changing the past is a topic that has been debated here in other areas. One was about pre cognition I think.
When my wife was sick I had a conversation with a friend of hers. She founded the Breast Cancer Rescource Center in Austin. I discribed Delpha's sympotoms to her and explained that they weren't indicitive of Breast Cancer. She advised me to check a PDR (physicians desk reference). I didn't have access to one and it was a month before I checked. When I did it was obvious that it was an an allergic reaction. If I would have checked sooner we could have saved her.
Would I go back and change that? I believe that everything happens for a reason. Good or bad it is either a lesson or a blessing. Delpha had been sexually assulted when she was young and was afraid of being alone. The prospect of me dieing first and her being left here scared her alot. So her leaving first is a blessing in a way.

I trust in the Lord. I submit to God's will. I know that this world is only temporary and I have eternity to spend with the one's I love.  . Blessings and power be yours. Earl

[Vortex]

Sorry about your loss. I don't like to imagine experiencing that kind of loss in my life as I can do it too vividly.

Returning to the OP's point: I completely dissagree abou the "irrationality" of the fear of death. The fact that you wouldn't "witness" the actual oblivion (assuming thats what happens) is nearly irrelevent to the fear of it.